Michaela:
Good morning, Tony. Oh my goodness. I have to, I just haveto like, have full transparency and tell you that I have been giddy, excited
for this podcast, like anticipating it for weeks. Oh, stop. Come on. No, I've
listened to like half of the episodes of your podcast in a matter of three
weeks. I, It's insane. I love it. And, um, I'm really excited to dive into what
we're gonna talk about today. And so for the listeners guys, Tony's an
incredible psychotherapist in, uh, the Sacramento, California area, but, uh,
he's got all sorts of programs for married couples. And more importantly what
I've been taking a lot of interest in is the neuroscience of narcissism. And
he's got an entire podcast about that. So, um, I'd love for you to share a
little bit of your backstory with the listeners and, uh, and then we'll dive
into my questions. And I will try to have brevity cuz I have so many
Tony:
Oh, I'm, I'm down. And hopefully we can, uh, I lovetangents and if I go off on one, you have a full permission to bring me right
back to the present . And, and I have to tell you what's been fun
for me is, uh, I've done what I think people don't ever like to admit, but I've
gone and listened to your podcast, and then I realize you're, you're a pilot and
I've got a son-in-law that is, um, learning to become a pilot. And then I think
we're actually very close to each other in vicinity, which
Michaela:
Is kinda amazing. Oh wow. That's awesome. Yes.
Tony:
I like, I I know that the airport, uh, that I actually runaround there a lot. So, um, I've been, Wow, you're, yeah. And you as a
therapist now, I feel like I have to be a pilot now to keep up.
Michaela:
So
Tony:
Excited as well.
Michaela:
That's exciting. I have lots to talk about. So this willprobably be the first of many that I, I love having repeat guests
Tony:
And then I'll have you on and, and that sort of thing. So,so the background, uh, I love that you asked that because I love that. Um, I
listened to one of your episodes where you were really talking about, uh,
self-help and in that whole concept of what if we aren't broken, what if we're
okay. That sort of thing, which is such a platform of mine as well. So I, I
went right outta college not knowing what I didn't know. And I jump into a, a
career in tech in the computer industry and not even understanding of how much
I dreaded and did, did not like my career. And so whenever I would go speak
somewhere, I did a lot of speaking, I worked trade shows, and I really liked
the connection with people, which I know sounds so cliche for us therapists,
Right. But I loved knowing what made people tick.
Tony:
And so I would find myself having more of a conversationwith the people that were helping us set up the booth. Then I would, the guys
coming in to talk about nerdy computer things that I was trying desperately to,
to hang onto or understand so I could sell another widget or whatever that
looked like. And, and meanwhile I'm dying inside and I would go, so see, you
will know this area, uh, mck really well. I would go to a taco tree restaurant
up in, uh, up in Auburn, and I would get the super nachos. I would go down to
this parking lot of a Denny's and I would listen to Dr. Laura Sleshinger while
I ate my, my taco tree. And I did that for so long, just, you know, and then I
would go right back to the computer place. I worked in software.
Tony:
And then finally I just said, Okay, this is, this ishorrible. This is miserable. And meanwhile, I've been writing a humor column in
a local newspaper for almost a decade. And I had a, I had started having kids.
I mean, my wife had 'em, and, but I was involved in that as well,
. And so then I started writing about being a dad, you know, and I
said, Okay, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna write a book about being a
dad. And then I thought, who is gonna listen to me? I have no letters behind my
name. So then between Dr. Laura and wanting to write a book, I went back and
got my masters in counseling. And, and then I honestly didn't realize that
during the process of getting your masters, you actually had to start seeing
clients. So when it was time to do that, that practicum, I thought, Oh, oh,
crap.
Tony:
So I started seeing clients and then lo and behold Ithought, Oh, this, this is it, you know, this is the thing. And that was, uh,
18, 19 years ago. And then since then, um, I've just been on this trajectory
of, I had no idea that you could actually like what you do, and if you like
what you do, then you actually are, are reading about it and watching shows
about it and talking to other people about it. That's why I'm excited to talk
to you. And so what that career did, or that trajectory did though, was I had
this, uh, grandiose vision of, of helping every, you know, man in the world
become a better husband and father. And, and it was funny, in grad school,
everybody would hear that. And, and I felt like that sounded so noble. And then
my teachers would often chuckle and, and I didn't know why.
Tony:
And then I learned later that because guys don't go totherapy, so then, you know, where are these guys I'm gonna help, right? And so
then what I start doing is I, I start getting a lot of addiction, uh,
compulsive sexual behavior, uh, impulse control disorder, you know, um, people
that are using pornography as a coping mechanism. Yeah. They can't stop. And so
then I, so I start working in that field and then, uh, you know, this was a
while ago, and so it was so full of like, uh, a lot of shame based techniques
and you know, how bad this is. And, and have you ever thought about just
knocking it off? And, and I'm thinking, this isn't working either. And so then
I just started realizing, and this is, I promise I'm getting to a point here,
but I started thinking, Okay, I can tell people to sing a song or do pushups
and that doesn't really work.
Tony:
So I started looking at what I started calling voids. Andso these guys I'm working with, I said, Okay, why do they turn to unhealthy
coping mechanisms, be it porn or drinking or gambling or work or whatever. And
I start identifying, I feel like it's when they're not connected in their
marriage or, or their parenting or their health, or maybe their faith or maybe
their career. So then I start going out and, and then will I better know how to
deal with those things? And so we wouldn't talk so much about the, you know,
the compulsion or the unhealthy coping mechanism, but I start finding a
evidence based couples model, and I find a parenting model, and I find a way to
navigate faith crisis. And I find a, you know, and then all of a sudden I'm
like, Oh, this, this is cool. And so then you start seeing people slowly
change. And I never, Cause I saw in your bio, you, you've done a lot of couples
work. And initially, if I had one or two couples a week, I thought, Oh, what a
nightmare. You know, I never wanna be a couple's therapist . But
then it's like, okay, if I wanna help guys be better husbands and fathers, that
means that I actually have to do couples therapy. So I start digging deep into
emotionally focused therapy, eft, and then I feel like, Right? Yeah.
Michaela:
Okay, so the best is the best. Yeah.
Tony:
It, well, and it, it makes sense. Like I know that I, Imean, I feel like we're kindred souls and some of the things that I've listened
to you talk about, and I feel like, okay, enough with just the, and how do you
feel about that? And what did he say and what did she say? And I just thought,
I feel like I could help people reflectively listen, but then I had to sit back
and say, Oh, I don't know. Now you guys figure it out. Like, I did my part, you
know, my work is done. And then I'd feel like EFT finally gave me a way to, to
have a framework to see if people could communicate well. Yes. So then I start
seeing, right? So then I start seeing couples, couples, and all of a sudden I'm
seeing 15, 20 couples a week, 25 couples a week.
Tony:
And then here's, here's where it comes in, Mikayla. Sothen all of a sudden, you know, I developed my own kind of tools based off of
eft. I've got these four pillars of a connected conversation, and, and they're
gold. And I keep going back to this framework, but I would notice that maybe
70% of couples or 60, 70% can, can see that, oh, we didn't know what we didn't
know. And now we communicate more effectively, and they write off into the sunset.
There's like 25, 30% where something's just not right, you know, uh, this guy
can't play in the sandbox. He's so special that he's gonna let me know, Hey,
when you hear how bad she is and how amazing I am, then you'll put those four
pillows of your ears, you'll put him, you know, somewhere, and then, and then
we can all gang up on her and let her know how bad she is.
Tony:
And, and I was like, what in the heck is that? You know,why can't these people play in the same sandbox? And, and why are they so, why
do they feel like their situations are so unique or special that they're above
therapy? They're above the tools, you know? And I realize, oh, um, they now
will leave therapy and they will wait until they find a therapist that will
just agree with them. Yeah, absolutely. I know you're driving on this. I know
you are. Yeah. And so then . So then, so then I start looking at
that. Um, I did a couple of podcasts. I had a lady on so early named Tina, uh,
Fuller, and she had a book called, It's My Turn. It was about growing up with a
narcissistic parent. And then, you know, I get off the, I interview her, and
then I realized, Oh wow.
Tony:
I was basically just doing an interview session, um,almost as if she was my therapist. So, you know, we, we talk off the, off the
call there and I start thinking, Holy cow. And I start recognizing my own
narcissistic traits and tendencies and the narcissistic patterns and family
systems. And then all of a sudden it was like something just unco. And from
that day forward, if I did a podcast about narcissism, I mean, it was five,
10,000 downloads more. So then I'm doing more of 'em, then I'm getting asked to
go talk about it on more podcasts. Then I'm speaking about it places I'm
testifying in court cases about it. And then, and then I, you know, start this
Waking Up the Narcissism podcast. And then, and by the time I'm doing that, I'm
now the maybe 12, 1300 couples and probably now 30 because of what the work I
do, 30 40% of 'em have, you know, emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits
and tendencies. And so now I sound like some genius, but it's because they're
so, you know, the emotional emotionally immature narcissist is so textbook that
it's like, Oh, I, I know how this will play out. And so, so I don't, don't know.
Hopefully that answered the question. Um, Oh, I know it
Michaela:
Did. And, and I'm like trying to jot notes quickly. You'retalking, um, going all the way back to when you said the super nachos at Taco
Tree, cuz that's my personal order as well. So , see swamp, start
with that. There we go. So, you know, you're talking about the emotionally
focused therapy. And I had started kind of my career in, in family systems and,
uh, really started to witness this dynamic playing out with the children that
had nothing to do with the children. And it was all about what was happening in
the, in the parenting and in, in the, in the coupling of the, the par the
parents. And so, uh, you know, I was kind of leaning towards doing this
couple's work in the context of the family system. Like, Hey, I'm gonna have
you guys get some childcare for the kiddos. You guys come in, let's sit down,
let's talk about, you know, what your understanding of what's happening with
the kids is.
Michaela:
And then these dynamics with play out in the session whereit's like, Oh, I bet that, oh, okay, this is what's happening. This is why
we're seeing these patterns of behaviors with the kids. And so I started to
kind of like, you look for a structure or a framework that would help me okay.
To better parent or, or to better counsel couples in the parenting context. And
I found the emotionally focused, and it was like a light bulb went off. It's
like, okay, now I've, now I can focus on some training. I can kind of dive into
this. And I did all of that. Um, yeah. And that's about the time, Uh, shortly
after that, the Couples Institute at Barry reached out to me and they do
developmentally focused for some people listening. This, this might be kind of
mumbo jumbo, but, um, you know, it's, it's basically an emotionally focused
with a, with an even additional structure added onto it, not unlike what you
described with your four pillars.
Michaela:
Yeah. And yeah. And so there's, there's just a whole lotthere. And it has been absolutely fascinating. I have definitely found my
nation. I've worked in just about everything. I've, I've done the 5150, you
know, um, suicide calls to the hospitals, worked at the psychiatric health
facility. I've, I've done the whole gamut. Really found my mission, this couple's,
um, component. And not unlike you, I started seeing things playing out now in
couples work. I like that. Yeah. Where I had this one client that was so
perplexing and I was so incredibly triggered. Um, you know, the counter
transference for me was just amazing. And what I started to realize in the
session was the way in which I was walking on eggshells. Yes. And I, I started
to realize like, Oh, I've gotta, I've gotta dive into this a little bit. I've
gotta find out what's coming up for me here.
Michaela:
And in that, um, my entire world flipped upside down. Imean, it changed every component of my life, not just my professional life. It
changed my, my personal life. It's a story I have not really shared. There are
people close to me, a handful of people close to me that know the real depth of
everything. And then there's, you know, this, this following on social media
that gets snippets of things I share, but they don't know in the context of
what. And, um, so I I, I have kind of this air of mystery that I'm still kind
of holding onto. And the reason I say that, you know, I recently did a book
signing for the new book and, uh, growth mindset. And I got asked by a long
time, you know, kind of follower of the work I've done, the books I've written
and stuff, Is there a book coming out on what you've been going through? And my
answer was, I never say never, but the answer right now is that I don't have
enough grace to speak that truth. I mean, it's just that, it's just the bottom
line about it, right? Like, I have so many emotions surrounding everything
still that I can't find that space of graceful, loving kindness to present, to
present it at all. So I just,
Tony:
It's, Well, it's interesting and I so appreciate yousaying that cuz you know, I don't know, I, it's so funny. I, I've thought, Huh,
I wonder what that backstory is. And, and so I'm I, so I'm saying that because
I don't know your story, but part of this Waking Up the Narcissism podcast, and
I don't know if you've heard me talk on there, but I've got a, a women's group,
uh, for women in in relationships Yes. With narcissistic fill in the blank. So
I just leave it at that entity, mom, sibling kid, uh, institution, whatever.
And it's now four or 500 women and it's thriving. But it's so amazing cuz I
feel like the work I'm trying to do is meet somebody where they're at because
it is such a process of you didn't know what you didn't know then, you know,
and it's hard to take action on it, then you start to take action on it. But
the default is still to not, because you, you've been through what you've been
through and then, and then eventually it just becomes part of who you are of,
you know, to, to kind of, um, remove yourself from that, that chaos and
madness. But then I feel like this stuff we're learning even more about the
vessel vander ca stuff about the body keeps the score is,
Michaela:
Is,
Tony:
You know, Yes, you, you can I the triggers and the, thevisceral reaction and, and part of the EFT work that I went back and looked at
was the, our emotions fire, what two and a half times faster than our logic.
And I feel like with people that have been in and emotionally abusive or, or
spiritually abusive and physically abusive and gas lighting and, and all that,
that I, I swear that their emotional, uh, their emotions must run about 10
times ahead of their logic because of a way to protect. So I feel like what
you're, you know, Right.
Michaela:
Well, I could, I could tell you so much about that. Firstoff, I listen to your podcast on the neuroscience component because one of the
things I was actually working through at the time, um, which I found your
podcast through my own personal psychotherapist, by the way. So that that's a
whole thing. Oh, that's so, it's so not. Yeah. And, um, and so, but I was
listening to your episode on that. I've read The Body Keeps the Score a million
times in a different context, Not not within my own life. Right. As a therapist
helping others. And, um, to your point about that too, when I started my
master's program, I was like, Oh, becoming a therapist is really about fixing
yourself . You go through all these classes and you're like, Oh,
oh, oh, . Um, so that's funny. I, uh, I was listening to the Body
Tips and Score episode and I was, what, what I was personally experiencing was
these, um, instantaneous anger, like just zero to 100 and, and, and anger.
Michaela:
And, and that is not my go to response. It doesn't feelgood to me. Um, and so for me it's like, gosh, why do I have zero capacity to
even spend a brief amount of time with this person? Mm-hmm.
, I mean, zero capacity. Right. And, um, listening to that
episode that, that you had, it puts so much in context that, you know,
basically for over a decade, my body was picking up on all of these
subconscious Don't kill yourself. Survive. Yes. You know, here's the, the Noki
organ as you call it, I think, um,
Tony:
Your brain said, Don't get killed device, it's gonna do
Michaela:
The don't get killed device. Yes. 12 years of all these,um, subconscious inputs where my body's protecting me. Um, and, and it makes
sense now that now that I'm removed and out of kind of what I describe as like
a numbness paralyzation, I'm feeling again. Right? Like, I'm feeling all these
things and so it makes sense that I can feel anger finally .
Absolutely.
Tony:
Oh man, Michaela, that's, Oh, it's beautifully said. Andit's funny that I just, this stuff is so, it makes so much sense. But then what
I love is the still the concept of I still, I know that I don't know what I
don't know. And I just did an episode a couple of weeks ago on the Amygdala
hijack, and now that's blown my mind because, you know, people will just say,
Well, help me or regulate myself or my emotions in that moment. And I realize
now, yes. And, and maybe tell I use way too much. Well, no, I use inappropriate
amount of humor for me because that's who I am. But I, my go to is, okay, the
best thing you can do is find somebody that's exploring time travel, go back a
couple of years, start practicing meditation, because in that moment you
weren't even aware of that. That's what, that was your make say protection.
Right? There's Tony in that moment. Yeah.
Michaela:
Towards the end of this particular relationship, I wasspending three hours a night in my sauna meditating Oh wow. Three hours just to
bring my cortisol level to a manageable absolutely. Existence. Yeah. I mean it,
it's saying, and I see it now so clearly, but then I thought it was, I was
self-help and I was all in the new age world at the time and all this and that.
Yeah. I mean, I really thought I was nail in life, right? Like I listen you the
student, but, um, but so what's, I love it. What's funny about that is after I
listen to your, that particular episode, I got an email and you know, the
phones are always listening, whatever. But I got an email from Pey about a Body
Keeps the Score Neuroscience. Oh, okay. It's, I was like, well obviously this
is for me because
Tony:
Ok. But alright, I need, I need a piece of that PEsthough. Like I gotta get my beak wet a little bit. Look at that. Right. You
listen podcast and now they're getting the training. Come on. All. Yeah.
Michaela:
Isn't that wild? Yeah. It's going the wrong direction. Youneed the kickback. Where's your Exactly Right. Yeah. So, so there's that,
there's that component of things, but, um, what I think is really spectacular
that, that I, that I like. Um, Oh, and one more thing I wanna touch on before I
might read to that is that I love how you use the term, um, emotionally mature
versus imo, uh, you know?
Tony:
Yeah.
Michaela:
Yes. Because for me, even as a psychotherapist, that termnarcissism, it was so gross to me. Right? Like, it just felt like dirty or like
attacky or like, I don't, I can't even describe it, but I avoided that like the
plague in my own psychotherapy practice. Yes. Now I have this terminology that
feels so much gentler for me is like a more empathic kind of a person. Yes. Um,
yes. And I've been using that a lot more frequently and it's really interesting
to see the ways in which my own clients kind of settle into that term too. It
feels better to them as well.
Tony:
Well, and I so appreciate that because I want you to knowthat, that, that I honestly, I, I'm pretty open about my ADHD and I, I love
just being impulsive. And I'll come in, I'm at 450 episodes or 340 episodes of
the virtual couch and some mornings I come in and just say, What am I gonna
talk about? But I've been real intentional with the Waking Up the Narcissism
podcast, even down to the title. Cuz it's not only waking up to the narcissism
in the relationship, but it's, you know, my own narcissistic traits and
tendencies, which I was intentional about talking about. But I had a move that
about 10 episodes in where I had an episode that says, am I the narcissist? And
I, and I very intentionally, um, introduced the concept of emotional immaturity
because narcissistic personality disorders, maybe 2% of the population.
Tony:
But we talk about it like it's, you know, everybody's a narcis.So I I I was, I'm right there with you cuz even though that's the work I'm
doing, it does, it carries such a, a, like a, it carries such a reaction. And
so once I, that was so intentional. And so now I talk about emotional
immaturity and, and I feel like we can all take ownership of ways or places
that were emotionally immature. And that's what I love about the, the highly
sensitive person or thepath who finds themselves in this, um, trauma bond or
this, you know, they call it human magnet syndrome with a, a narcissist or, or
a severely emotionally immature person. And so then, cuz I feel like the, the
nice person almost inevitably says, Wait a minute, am I the narcissist? Which
my number one rule is no, cause you literally ask yourself the question that
means you're not. But then I feel like, okay, emotional immaturity might, might
be a better way to, to say, okay, I, I can, I can put words around when I react
a certain way or, Cause you can grow from that. And so I I, I appreciate you
bringing that up cuz that's been a big shift in, in just having people talk
more about it just out in, out in the world.
Michaela:
Absolutely. And so, you know, it, during my firstintroduction to these things, it was like Dr. Romney and Jackson McKenzie's
goal again and psychopath free. And, um, you know, through that process that
question came up for me so much. I mean, it was like, okay, is this, but you
talk about the textbook and it's literally like, I'd flip the chapter and go,
You've gotta be kidding me. You've gotta be kidding me. And then what I've come
to find, even in the past month and a half mm-hmm. , there
were still things that I said, Oh no, that wasn't me though. Not that one, that
one, that one thing in this one chapter. That one doesn't fit me. Come to find
out, Oh yeah, it did. You just didn't see it. You just didn't even know. Yeah.
Tony:
You know? Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yes.
Michaela:
Gosh. And that's when I was having that anger kind oflayering up like, gosh, how much, how much have I lost? So, so the second
component to all of this, um, that I've really found, so I was so grateful for
was you've done a couple of episodes on what is a healthy relationship, Right?
Like what does that look like? Yes. Because I think people who are coming out
of certain types of relationships like this get confused. Yes. Like, am I just
being love bombed? Am I just, you know, what, what, in what context is this
normal and in what context is this not? Because, you know, I think you said
something about the picker being broken type of a deal. Yep,
Tony:
Yep. People, people ask me all the time that they're like,Well, my picker must be broken. And, and I think, okay, that's a, I mean, bless
your brain's pink squishy heart, but that's a story it's trying to tell you
because it's scary to go back out there and test the picker, but you've got all
this new data and, and now it's time to find out what a real relationship looks
like. But then I worry people don't do the work and they just go, they do go
repeat the same pattern. So I love that you're bringing this up.
Michaela:
Oh my gosh. And I think to your point, right, the unselfhelping, right? This is the part of things that I have been really struggling
with and really trying to identify just as a general overall theme is I spent
12 years of my life fixing myself to fit into a mold that was never, still,
never good enough. Right? Like, that was my story and, and I allowed it why?
And then I, and then I think, okay, and so in what ways do I need to un self-help,
but in what ways do I need to continue self-help to, to grow from this
experience? Right? There's this gentle balance that I'm trying to find of like,
yep. It's,
Tony:
It's crazy. And well, McKayla, what I, what I soappreciate about that is, I know I make it sound so easy, but then I like the
joke of, you know, I've only been a therapist for 17 years and have seven years
of mindfulness and I ran 150 ultra-marathon. So that's all you gotta do to
finally calm me down. Right? Um, no big deal. No, not a problem. Cause I love
saying that, you know, I wish I would've figured a lot of these things out
before I was, I'm 52 now and I wish I would've figured it out in my twenties or
thirties or forties, and I still find myself beating myself up and then I have
to just note that and say, Yeah, yeah, that would've been something, huh. But
anyway, you know, here I am and, and I realize, I try to think it sounds so
easy, but it's like, oh yeah, that just takes a lot of time. But it, but it is,
people can get there
Michaela:
A positively. Absolutely does. And so when I have momentswhere like, a lot of pain flares up for me and what it's actually surrounding
is that it's sur I had it, I had it happen this morning. Okay, This is, I'll
give you, I'll share a little, I'll give a little snake peek to the audience
here. . Yeah. I love it. But, um, you know, so I'm laying in, in
bed with my partner. I receive, um, I receive immense positive love, kindness,
generosity, you know, mornings with your amazing love, the things we can talk
about, the hugs, the kisses, all the things I get, all the, all the positive
affirmations in the world that you could ever imagine really looking forward to
what unfolds for our weekend. All the things, right?
Tony:
Yeah. Yeah.
Michaela:
And of, and it's a simple thing. It's, it's a text messagethat, that comes in on the phone from a number that's not saved. Right. It's
this simple. Oh
Tony:
Yeah.
Michaela:
It's this simple. And my body instantly goes into thisrearing back safety, protective, what is this? You know, like I didn't respond
with that, but this is what's happening in my body. And I take a deep breath
and, uh, he's finishing his thought and conversation, whatever. It doesn't even
face him. It's not, cuz it's not a thing. Right. There's nothing there. So he
has no reaction cuz it's a thing. Yeah. And I let him finish his thought and I
say, I wanna share something with you. And, and he says, Okay, what? I said, I
have a story right now. And he says, Okay, what's your story? And I said, My
story is that you're engaging with a woman and she's reaching out to you at six
o'clock in the morning and she just texted you. Mm-hmm. .
Yeah. And he said, and he looks at me and he says, That must be so hard for you.
And I was like, almost find this guy. That's incredible. That's a whole nother
dialogue, but I'm almost in tears by his capacity for compassion. Right. And
like how he just literally just like puts his arm around me, pulls me and
close, he goes, I guarantee you it's a telemarketer. Opens his phone and reads
it. Hello. We've got an Adal grant. Just, just to, just to calm my central
nervous system.
Tony:
Yeah. Michaela, I feel like, I feel like I need youinvolved in, have so many projects I wanna do around this. And it's like, I
mean, you know, we, we can do a role play, which I'm horrible at, but if I play
the role, the emotionally immature guy and that one is like, Oh, you think I'm
having an affair? Well how do I, how do I know you're not, you know...episode continues